go there. if you feel like you can explain it, sir, and make sense while doing so, hit it out of the park. otherwise, on this one, we are all waiting to hear how you explain it. that does it for us. see you tomorrow night. time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." lawrence has a rare prime time interview with dianne feinstein of california. please stay tuned for that. have a great night. the senate has done it before. passed an assault weapons ban and limit on high capacity ammunition magazines back when the united states senate was not afraid to stand with dianne feinstein. she joins me for a "last word" exclusive. >> it is time for them to say what they think. >> can emotion trump deep division. >> yeah or nay. >> he is joining the filibuster, getting a powerful ally.

>> mitch mcconnell, threatening to filibuster the gun safety bill. >> clearly had no bipartisan support in committee. >> at least pretend you're interested in it. >> see what he decides to turn to. >> please pretend you give a damn about what happened. >> for god's sake, we have to have debate. >> we have to have a vote. >> clearly no support in committee. >> trying to avoid a primary in 2014. >> then there's the mother jones report. >> leaked recordings published today. >> exposing raw politics of a lot of campaigns. he and the staff with strategies. >> this is what you get from the political left. >> against ashley judd. >> including a plan to bring up past battles with depression. >> he has to deal with what's said on the tapes. >> who disclosed the tape. >> this is what you get from the political left in america. >> this is how he rolls. >> we are moving to another subject. >> mitch mcconnell, candidate up for re-election in 2014. >> lawrence o'donnell was pointing out last night.

>> leaders never join fill busters. >> the gop cannot sustain a filibuster. >> the american people deserve a vote. >> changing the climate on capitol hill. >> this is not going away. >> it really comes down to a question of blood or guts. >> we're going to vote on these things anyway. >> the blood of innocent people or the senate of the united states having the guts to protect the welfare of our citizens. newtown came to washington today, 11 family members of some of the victims of the sandy hook elementary school massacre walked the halls of congress. they were not there for the media. >> ask for your messages for the senators? >> no comment. >> they were there to ask members of congress to vote for the gun safety legislation that senator harry reid will bring to the senate floor later this week.

the bill already faces unprecedented filibuster threat, unprecedented in that mitch mcconnell said he will join that filibuster, something leaders on either side usually don't do. vice president joe biden said he spoke to one of the mothers who lost her child at sandy hook who could not understand the opposition to gun safety. >> one remarkable woman who has a background in psychology and psychiatry said, you know, how do they explain not doing anything? my little girl, my baby, was hiding in a bathroom and she got shot through the heart. she was hiding in the bathroom and she got shot through the

heart. and i having lost a child, lost a spouse, it was such a profound way of asserting, don't they understand? they're talking about filibustering. i mean, what are they doing? >> senator reid said he is determined to push this bill through any procedural road blocks. >> we're going to vote on these things anyway, take a little bit of time, but as i've said for months now, the american people deserve a vote on background checks, on federal trafficking, on safety in schools, on the size of clips, and yes, assault weapons. >> and they will get that vote on the size of clips and assault weapons, thanks to the untiring commitment of senator dianne feinstein who got the provisions

enacted into law 20 years ago by pushing them as amendments on the senate floor. joining me now, senior senator from california, dianne feinstein. thanks for joining us. >> you're welcome, lawrence. >> i explained to people if they want to see gun legislation and ammunition control legislation passed, they're going to have to stand with dianne, tell their members of congress how they feel about it. let's listen to what president obama says about that. >> we have to tell congress it's time to restore the ban on military style assault weapons and a ten round limit for magazines to make it harder for a gunman to fire 154 bullets into his victims in less than five minutes. let's put that to a vote! >> senator, a lot of people don't want to see that come to a vote, but you're going to bring it to a vote in the senate, aren't you? >> i have a commitment from the majority leader i will have a

vote, and i take him at his word. this is an important piece of legislation. every single poll as you pointed out, lawrence, has shown that the american people support this legislation. as they do the things in the general package. but what's important to me is to dry up supply of the weapons so over time they're less apt to fall in the hands of grievance killers, juveniles, people that are mentally disabled and criminals. and what i have found over the years is that these weapons are especially attractive to these particular kinds of people, and it is the kind of offensive weapon that's relatively easy to use. you don't really have to aim it. it's got enormous fire power and can spew out bullets as quickly as you can depress what is a relatively light trigger. >> senator, you were fighting

against the odds 20 years ago when you did get this passed in the senate. and now you are against unprecedented opposition as we all know, it is very unusual for a leader, majority or minority leader to join any kind of filibuster. listen to what senator mitch mcconnell, minority leader is saying about why he is going to join a filibuster on this bill. >> could you explain to us why you decided to support the filibuster efforts of the gun bill? >> yeah, the particular bill that the majority leader has indicated he may call up is one that came out of the judiciary committee on a partisan vote. clearly had no bipartisan support in committee, and that was my view on that. >> senator, if that's a reason to filibuster, that's a reason to filibuster a lot of bills that come to the senate floor. >> well, that's right. now, what's interesting and i think you were working in the senate at the time when the bill came up in 1994 and it was a

bill, a similar type bill, this is an improved bill, but when it came up, it was on an amendment. it passed on a motion to table. there was no cloecher vote, and statements made by republicans and democrats alike were we should stand up, debate this, and vote on it. it is important to the nation to know where people stand on a matter as important to this. passed the senate, went to the house, and the bill itself was never amended in either the house or the senate, then it went to the president, and of course the president signed it. so it was the law of the land for ten years, and it did dry up the supply of the weapons. >> senator, what i think is so crucial about your amendments, especially the magazine limitation is the massacres we are talking about in the last couple years involved legally

obtained weaponry. so, for example, in connecticut that shooter wouldn't have had a 30 round magazine because everything there was legally obtained. that family was limiting itself to what was legally available. if your bill was to pass, as it has passed in connecticut in the state legislature, there would have been a ten bullet limit that that shooter was working with that day. >> well, that's right. and that obviously reduces the number of people that he can kill, particularly it provides an opportunity for somebody to get to him and disable him. this has been, you know, such a hard go this time because i think the partisanship has really put people in a position where they're not able to do what's best for the country, and there's no way that i can see that what's best for the country is let these kinds of weapons multiply in our society so

they're more easily available to people that would misuse them. i like to point out one thing. a background check or some mental law wouldn't change the fact that this mother, nancy lanza, gave this weapon to her son, that he gave a seriously disturbed young man weapons, that she taught the young man how to use these weapons, and of course the first person this young man killed was his own mother. then he went to sandy hook. to me, this is such a devastating incident which likely can be replicated, was replicated to some extent in the gabby giffords event. i have a very hard time understanding why americans are really going to be safer with these kinds of offensive weapons that are constructed all for military use to kill large numbers of people in close

combat. why is our nation better because juveniles and grievance killers and gangs can get hold of these weapons to go against police, to go into a law firm, into a theater, into a mall and just mow down people. >> senator, there are some republicans that are not afraid of having this vote and about eight of them said publicly that they will vote to allow the bill to proceed and get to a vote and you'll be able to get to the vote you want on your amendment, so it looks like we're going to get there. the delays that mitch mcconnell and others might engage in might take a few days. one of the republicans has said we just want to drag this out for three more days of debate. i would think three more days of debate is something that you would welcome on the senate floor as an opportunity to continue to make your case. >> yes, i do welcome it, particularly on this bill. now, the package has a number of other bills on it, and if

cloecher mode is on the package, that's a different thing. when my bill is able to come up, and not just my bill, we have 22 co-sponsors, talked to a large number of people about it. as i said, every poll shows america supports it. that's what's so amazing to me. i mean, this isn't something that 10, 20, 30% of americans support, it is something that has the majority of americans supporting it. it is something that helps guarantee the safety. i very much liked what the president said last night because many people say when an infant is caught up, just in d.c. alone, we had three young children shot in the crossfire, and the answer is well, they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. these children were in the right place at the right time. they were where they were supposed to be and that place where they were supposed to be has always been known as a safe

place, an elementary school. >> senator dianne feinstein, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, a stunning tape of a republican senator insulting the parents of the children murdered at sandy hook elementary. and a tape of how republicans plan to attack ashley judd if she ran for senate. and for ten years, a marine has been hiding the american flag wrapped around the statue of saddam hussein before it fell. that marine will join me tonight and tell us what that flag has come to mean to him. capella university understands rough economic times have led to an increase in clinical depression. drug and alcohol abuse is up. and those dealing with grief don't have access to the professional help they need. when you see these issues, do you want to walk away or step up? with a degree in the field of counseling or psychology from

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a candidate that supported a ban on assault weapons won special election in illinois to replace former congressman jesse jackson junior. the democratic candidate, robin kelly got 81% of the vote.

kelly received more than $2 million in help from ads paid for by the anti-gun pac created by new york city mayor michael bloomberg. kelly vowed to be a leader in the fight for gun and ammunition controls. up next, that shocking tape of a republican senator insulting the families of the massacre victims at sandy hook elementary school.

what provisions would you like to see passed in washington? what do you think will be most effective? >> personally, i would think limiting magazine size and

universal background check. if i had to pick two. >> anything that helps reduce gun trafficking and straw purchases. >> straw purchases are those when a person has a clean record buys a gun for a person who would not have been able to pass a background check. >> correct. that's common sense. >> common sense laws. >> as of tonight, not a single republican senator thinks that that is common sense. for one of those senators, james inhofe of oklahoma, enough time has passed since 12-14 that he feels free to insult the parents of the murdered children of sandy hook. this is what he said to huffington post roert today. >> i think it is so unfair the administration to hurt these families to make them think this has something to do with them whether it doesn't. >> they seem to feel it does. >> that's because they have been told that by the president. >> thank you. >> joining me for her reaction, connecticut congresswoman

elizabeth este whose district includes newtown. congresswoman, apparently for senator inhofe, the parents are fair game to go after politically? >> it shows how some people are very out of touch. we have seen it with some leadership in the nra. i will tell you it is clear across the country, americans want a vote on these very important provisions because they want their communities to be safer. and it is not just the newtown families, it is everyone that lost a loved one from gun violence, and that's all over this great country. >> joy reid, he is not the first one to be condescending and insulting. it may be the single most vile thing i heard a senator say. >> it is incredible that there isn't more sensitivity that newtown families are why we have gotten this far on gun control. even when gabby giffords was

shot, that wasn't enough to move congress to do something real and substantive. the tragedy these families faced was so unimaginable, any parent, grandparent, i don't understand how you could say anything less than charitable to them. this has everything to do with them, this is why they're on capitol hill. >> ari, you saw them sunday with scott pelley on "60 minutes." these are smart people that lived through a hell that they're still living through. >> right. and they're living through the policy ramifications of a strangle hold on any measures to deal with gun safety in this country, not to blame any individual member of congress, it is a complex equation of how things get done or not done, but it is incredibly frustrating, and outrageous, to hear members say somehow they should be legislating in the dark and not thinking about the families, not only these families but all of the families that have to live with the repercussions of a

system where you said 90% support something that's common sense but the nra says no vote so there's no vote. >> listen to what joe biden said about the limitation on magazine clips. >> cops came in two and a half minutes in sandy hook, only had ten rounds in the clip, he would have had to change that round and magazine another three times. somebody would be alive. they don't get how really smart people don't get that. i mean, they really don't get it. >> represent esty, the vice president was saying things we heard the parents and other family members of other victims of sandy hook say about that issue of reloading, that the longer these massacres can go on without the shooter having to reload, the more people are going to be dead. >> well, and we know that for a fact in what happened at sandy

hook. 11 children escaped from a classroom while he was changing magazines. and he chose to take the 30 round magazines with him. he left at home the 10 and the 15 round magazines. what he took with him were the 30s. he knew very well what he was doing and intended to kill the maximum number of people. that shows right there, it was very intentional on his part and that shows the difference that every single second makes a difference. >> and joy reid, this is why i love seeing dianne feinstein standing and fighting with all of the beltway pundits saying it is hopeless, forget about it. she's going to get these magazines to a vote in the senate and get assault weapons to a vote in the senate, and the idea that you want to make sure on the republican side, you want to make sure our mass murderers are the best equipped mass murderers in the world.

you want to be sure they don't have to reload. that position to be defended on the senate floor is something dianne feinstein is going to force, she's going to force them to make that. >> the assault weapons ban is an amendment, not even getting it into the main bill. you're seeing cracks on the republican side, among senators that are asking themselves whether they want to stand with tea party freshmen, ted cruz, rand paul, whether they want to go over the cliff with them. public opinion is so firmly against them. newtown families have been firm and determined, on the hill, calling these guys. it has to be much more difficult to say no to them one on one, which is why a lot of them are trying to avoid talking to newtown families. i think the fact we're going to get a cloture vote, debate the bill, is in large part because of that pressure. >> to joy's point, this is how the senate works. the republicans had a higher filibuster rate for this president than at any other point in history. their problem is they have a tea

party caucus now that actually preaches what the republicans practice. that is the shift. "the new york times" was reporting that tonight saying republicans voted to block debate on bills scores of times in the last few years, but they usually do so without bragging. and i think that is the potential here, that you have these guys, mostly young men who have come in, the new freshmen republicans and they're very excited to point out the fact that they like to use the power of obstruction and distortion to block democracy. and on certain issues they obviously get away with it. on this issue i think if voices rise around the country, they may not get away with it this time. >> representative esty, you were on air force one flying from connecticut with the president and some of the families. what was it like to be on that flight? >> it was very emotional. these families have extraordinary courage and commitment. unimaginable reserve and strength and are fueled by this conviction that this country can and must do better, and i fully

agree with them, and i think it would be hard pressed for a member of the senate to sit in a quiet office with these families and explain to them why it's okay to leave these large capacity magazines, hundreds of millions of them, out there, why it is okay that we have half of vietnam war gun death every year. 30,000 americans die every year and that's okay, that that's the best we can do. that's what these families are saying, we can do better and they're right, we can and must do better for them and everyone in this country. >> thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, a secretly recorded tape that tells us just how republicans plan to attack ashley judd if she ran for senate. future, a confident retirement. those dreams have taken a beating lately. but no way we're going to let them die. ♪

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this just in, seriously, just handed to me. an official response from the u.s. government about beyonce and jay-z's trip to cuba. a statement from the treasury department says it is our understanding that the travelers in question traveled to cuba pursuant to an educational exchange trip organized by a group authorized to sponsor and organize programs to promote people to people contact in cuba. and the agencies they say they

do not restrict the subject matter of the educational activities, just must result in meaningful contact with the cuban people. and i think we saw meaningful contact with the cuban people right there on that video. the statement also says that the treasury applies criteria uniformly for these trips. no special treatment here whatsoever, no special treatment. up next, the audio tape of senator mitch mcconnell plotting against ashley judd. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business. and you...rent from national.

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judd who was at that time considering a run for mcconnell's seat. clearly she's emotionally unbalanced. >> after mother jones revealed this tape, ashley judd released a statement saying we expected nothing less from mitch mcconnell and his camp than to take a personal struggle such as depression which many americans cope with on a daily basis and turn it into a laughing matter. the democratic senate campaign committee said senator mcconnell should apologize to the millions of americans who suffer from depression and don't believe it's a laughing matter. today, mitch mcconnell defended his planned attack on ashley judd this way. >> as you know, last month my wife's ethnicity was attacked by

a leftwing group in kentucky and then apparently they also bugged my headquarters. quite a nixonian move. >> richard nixon was, of course, a republican. chuck todd reports that the mcconnell campaign hired a security firm to search their headquarters for a bug, so they say. they found nothing. mother jones editor david corn that released that tape today told msnbc this. >> we did not make the tape. we were provided the tape and that it is our understanding the tape was not part of any watergate style bugging operation as mitch mcconnell has claimed it to be. >> mitch mcconnell is the most unpopular senator in america according to public policy polling. only 36 approve of his job performance, 54% disapprove.

joining me, karen finney that will soon host a new weekend program on msnbc and ana marie cox from the guardian. we expected they would be doing some kind of opposition research on ashley judd as ashley judd moved toward a decision on running, but these guys were obviously going to play it as ugly as could be imagined. >> oh, absolutely. and look, on one hand whereas i do not condone what they were doing and if i were part of a campaign, wouldn't feel comfortable with that line of attack, we know that's the way the game is played. we both worked in politics long enough to know that's part of the unfortunate reality. what i find priceless is the classic deflection. if you're going to sit in a room, say this is how we're going to attack somebody, be a man, have the guts to defend that, right, when you go out. don't try to deflect by saying oh, these nixonian tactics,

which as far as i understand from this afternoon, they haven't been able to prove any of that is true. >> ana marie cox, the flaw in this attack strategy is that you cannot successfully attack someone in politics for something they have written about themselves, something they have talked about publicly. in fact, it is something that would have humanized ashley judd as a candidate along with several other things that would humanize her, and that's what makes this stuff so crazy is that you can't take her own revelations and throw them at her. >> i like what you were saying about crazy. people are coming through in dreams for my father thinking they're going to find a golden nugget. i am not surprised they're trying to do this. i guess i for one am a little disappointed that she won't run and use this in her plan of attack. i think things are changing when it comes to depression. one in ten americans will be treated for depression.

i would like to see someone in the modern era try to use that attack against somebody and see it work. i think there's a strong likelihood that someone in our immediate vicinity has suffered depression if you're standing next to another person. i almost hope this fight is picked at some point, sorry it is not mitch mcconnell that will pick it, he is so unpopular, he could do good for people advocating for mental health. >> i completely agree. karen, i think he showed how flat footed he is thinking he can use a tweet some group put out a couple months ago about his wife as the defense of why i would want to try to throw dirt on ashley judd and ridicule her in some way. >> but also trying to use that tweet as proof, right, that there's a vast leftwing conspiracy against him, right? i mean, it is ridiculous. the other thing to your point about mental health issues, we

say in this country we want politicians who will be candid and honest and forthright. i respect the fact that ashley judd was very honest about her depression, how she handled it. i think that is actually healthy. a lot of people would say that's what you should be able to do and you shouldn't then be stigma tized for it. i think that response shows how embarrassed mcconnell must be for having participating in such a shameful meeting. >> ana marie, here is a guy in serious polling trouble in his own state now. how do you think he is doing with the women's vote as of around right now tonight in kentucky? >> yeah, doesn't look so good. i just agree with karen. the whole set up shows -- she said flat footed, i think he is some kind of cartoon character in search of a cartoon from

the '30s in which he will fit in. he really doesn't have an ear for what people want and kind of represents the entire republican party in that sense. i don't think he is going to find a lot of women scrambling to the headquarters. >> and if he wants to find depression around him, all he needs to do is look at his colleagues on the senate floor, 100 of the most depressed men in america. and women. thank you both for joining me tonight. coming up, rewriting grover norquist about taxes in america. meet the 5-passenger ford c-mc-max one. c-max two. that's a super fuel- efficient hybrid for me. and a long range plug-in hybrid for you. now, let's review. introducing the ford c-max hybrid and the ford c-max energi plug-in hybrid. say hi to the c-max hybrids.

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with the bing it on challenge to show google users what they've been missing on bing. let's bing it on. [fight bell: ding, ding] how many here are google users? what if i was to tell you that you would actually like bing way more than google when it came to the results? prove it. let's look up some taco places. i like the left side. yeah? okay, do we need to find out what the waves are like down at the beach? what side do you like better? i like the results on the right. i'm gonna go with the one on the left. oh! bing won! people prefer bing over google for the web's top searches. don't believe it? go to bingiton.com and see what you're missing. as the most dreaded day of the year looms large, it is time to "rewrite" america's understanding of how dreaded april 15th should be. at midnight six days from now, you better have your income tax return postmarked or electronically filed, or else, or else nothing. you can file for an extension of time if you need one.

but april is that time of year where it is easy for taxpayers to feel heavily taxed. may is the time most taxpayers don't feel so heavily taxed because 75% of you will be getting refunds from the irs. the commander in chief of the anti-tax party, grover norquist, leads every republican in the constant chant that the united states is just drowning in taxation, that we can't possibly be competitive in the world with such a harsh tax burden weighing down on this country. these are the very same people who you've just seen in the last two days worshipping at the feet of margaret thatcher. many of them say she was even stronger and tougher than their much mythologized ronald reagan. as i reported here last night in a segment that was misunderstood by some as praise for margaret thatcher, thatcher was a fiscal conservative by british standards, but there are two

areas in which she stood far to the left of any american president and any american politician of her time or our time. she preserved a top income tax rate of 60% for 10 of her 11 years in office. that's 20 points higher than the top income tax rate under president clinton and now under president obama. that is a very liberal top income tax rate by american standards. she raised taxes on lower incomes and then she doubled the national sales tax known as value added tax, which hits low income people the hardest. she pushed her country's tax regime in a regressive direction, but maintained an extremely high overall tax burden on the united kingdom, a

tax burden unimaginable in the united states. she actually increased taxes as a percentage of gdp. she pushed it up to 35% when she left office, and that's where it remains today. so much for margaret thatcher's slaying of the beast of british taxation. taxation went up under her. the reason margaret thatcher had to maintain such a high tax burden in the united kingdom is that she had a lot of expensive socialism to pay for in britain, which she had absolutely no intention of eliminating. >> the principles of adequate health care should be provided for all, regardless of ability to pay, must be the foundation of any arrangement for financing the health service. we stand by that. >> that is the most expensive socialism you can stand by, universal health care coverage. she got rid of a few other small

socialistic things, some socialized industries, sure, but kept the most expensive socialism the united kingdom had. and there's not one elected republican in washington that agrees with one word that margaret thatcher just said. the united kingdom really does have universal health care coverage. the united states does not. and the united states still will not come close to universal coverage after all of obama care is completely implemented. that law was never designed to be a universal coverage bill, despite the rhetoric surrounding it. our politics have simply surrendered the possibility of achieving universal health care coverage. what margaret thatcher called the principle that adequate health care should be provided for all. this country's refusal to provide adequate health care for all, even under the new law, is

what allows the united states to be one of the least taxed modern economies in the world. as this chart shows, 31 countries have a higher tax burden than the united states. another way to look at that chart is as a measurement of what the government provides for its people, and another way to say that is you are looking at a chart that measures how socialist these countries are. denmark, of course, is at the top, taking 47.6% cut out of the economy for taxation. sweden is almost as much, almost as high. you move almost halfway down that chart and you find the united kingdom right where margaret thatcher left the united kingdom, with an economy that is about one-third socialism. then you keep sliding down past israel and canada and ireland

and australia and there, there is the united states, at about 25%. just about half as socialistic as denmark and a third less socialistic than the united kingdom. and as a result, our government provides less for its citizens than those other countries, less of a social safety net. we are as a government less generous and as a people less taxed. those numbers include all forms of taxation, state, local, federal, corporate, all of it. the reason rush limbaugh and grover norquist stay in this country and fight for lower taxation is there is not one lower taxed country in the world that they would rather live in. they are living in the world's biggest tax haven, the united states of america. why hasn't mitt romney moved to the cayman islands where he could live an intensely boring

life with his money? because he's living in the tax haven of the united states. he doesn't have to move to the cayman islands, he is living in the country where he only has to pay 14% on his giant income. and so as you sweat through the complexities of your tax returns or cross your fingers while you watch your accountant do that for you, know that the good news is you are living in a country with a very low tax burden, and the bad news is because of that low tax burden, you are living in a country where good, deserving people who need government's help continue to suffer. they suffer deprivations that none of the other countries on that chart would allow them to suffer in health care and other needs. they suffer deprivations that are unthinkable in the united kingdom in margaret thatcher's time or our time. their suffering is the price

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the scenes of free iraqis celebrating in the streets, tearing down statues of saddam hussein in baghdad are breathtaking. watching them, one can't help but think of the fall of the berlin wall and collapse of the iron curtain. we are seeing history unfold, events that will shape the course of a country. >> that was ten years ago on this very day, april 9th, the day u.s. marines helped topple the statue of saddam hussein in baghdad. as you will recall before the statue fell, a marine climbed

the ladder, placed an american flag over the face of saddam hussein. less than two minutes later, that was replaced with an iraqi flag, but photographic images of the american flag over his face were already being sent all over the world. today on salon.com, jordan heller said this about that briefly famous american flag, the flag has become more burden than trophy for tim mcclauf lynn, the marine that trucker that infamous flag in his duffle. it is a symbol of the sanitized idea of war, of lies and myths that nations spin to bureau initial their aggression. that's why it is hidden in a safety deposit box in a small town bank in new hampshire. joining me now, former marine lieutenant, tim. thanks for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> tell us the story of this

flag, where it came from, why you brought it with you to iraq? >> sure. the first part, it is neither a burden or trophy for me, it is a personal flag that i think you'd find most marines would have with them, and if not marine corps flag or american flag, then some sticker. marine corps is a patriotic service, that's just what it is. this flag was given to me a few days after the 9/11 attacks, didn't come from the pentagon, i just worked there at the time. i had it. we packed our bags, went to iraq, tried to take a picture a few times of my flag. we got shot at once, got a flagpole run over. when we arrived in the square, he said we're not getting shot at. get a picture of your flag. what i think i didn't perceive was that the world's media were filming that for the rest of the world to see it. from my point of view, it is just my flag that i took a

picture of, it is not a burden or trophy but at the same time i understand the world saw it, and it is laden with symbolism and that's okay, too. >> why have you kept it hidden the last ten years? >> i wouldn't say i kept it hidden. i just keep it because it's mine. i don't share it with the rest of the world because i never intended to in the first place. and it has a lot of personal meaning to me, which would be different than the symbolic meaning it would have for you or anybody else that saw it. for me, it reminds me what came beforehand, which was a lot of death and destruction for marines and iraqis. and what came afterwards, corporal gonzales was killed a few days later, then a war kept going for ten years. so i keep it to myself because it has personal meaning to me, which wasn't intended for the world's consumption, but there it is. >> tim, tell us when that flag

went on it, did you all realize this was a mistake, that's not the flag that should be there? >> no. keep in mind, it is the marine corps. i would never think of the american flag as a mistake. in years since, i've understood that the world has lots of opinions about that, and that's fine, and that's part of why i keep it to myself because it was never intended to foster a conversation about is it an occupation, should or shouldn't it have been done. it is the marine corps. they love the flag, love our country. when you ask young men and women to invade a country, we don't think of it from a political point of view, we think about it as doing what our country asked us to do and the country is reflected in my american flag. that's the story. >> and tim, you worked, want to close, you worked in the pentagon, worked there on 9/11, but you weren't in the building when the plane hit. >> i had stepped out for my morning run, was across the river near the jefferson memorial, ran